While America’s “morality-obsessed” voters get ready for their national day of gluttony (to be followed by our national month or so of avarice), yours truly would like to give thanks… to the people of Ukraine for taking democracy seriously enough to threaten an armed revolt when an election is clearly stolen right from under them (we’re obviously hoping this works out peacefully and orderly, with no loss of life; still, I am heartened by the enthusiasm all around) . While EU and Russian leaders are urging a peaceful resolution, its good to see that there are things in this world that some people actually take seriously enough to take to the streets about in meaningful numbers.
It’s not without some irony that American officals (like our lame duck Secretary of State) are acknowledging that Ukrainian Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych’s apparent electoral win for the Ukrainian presidency over challenger Victor Yushchenko is apparently tainted by fraud and not recognized as legitimate by the American government. The primary bone of contention, of course, is that exit polls show clearly that Yuschenko won. (Of course, exit polls were exactly accurate in predicting which American presidential candidate won… except in electronic-voting-machine heavy swing states Ohio and Florida. In some sense, it is a sign of our own national maturity that we have an orderly court system that we all respect… even when those very courts betray that respect. On the other hand, there are plenty of appropriate peaceful ways to show our outrage here… that aren’t being pursued. I believe it was Dr. King who said that we begin to die the day we stop talking about things that are important.)
Back in Kiev, Yuschenko supporters have been taking to the cold streets for days, and at various times, Yuschenko has threatened blockades, strikes, or worse. Yuschenko has offered to hold a new election, and at other times Yanukovych has been conciliatory and… less conciliatory.
For the moment, Yuschenko (apparently) will take his dispute with Ukraine’s election commission to Ukraine’s courts. If Ukraine’s high court proves to be as corrupt as the election commission (never seen THAT before), it remains unclear what will happen next (even as former Polish Solidarity union leader and President Lech Walesa is in Kiev to try to mediate a peaceful resolution). The situation remains potentially explosive (though thankfully, Ukraine renounced the Soviet era nuclear weapons on its soil a long time ago).
Thankful, talking dog, for potentially maddening disorder among a nation over 40,000,000 people? You’re damned right. While only 21% of our own 18-25 year olds bothered to get off their ass to vote in our own nation, other nations that have experienced totalitarianism and privation and chaos, et al. understand just how important… some things– like democracy– are. So important, they are worth taking chances for. And they will not sit back and take them for granted. It’s as if these people were… alive.
And for that, I am thankful. Even if they’re not my own countrymen.
tdog
Can’t remember where I ran across you. You have an interesting take on things.
I agree with you, wholeheartedly, on the Ukraine situation. I work with a couple of guys who are recent emigres from there, and it is common knowledge that the current gang are looting the country blind.
You mention the fact that the exit polling only varied significantly from the final results in Ohio and Florida: is there a source for this? (Sorry, I’m Canadian and am not as informed on such topics as I perhaps should be.)
Because if it’s true, it’s a very interesting fact.
It’s not true, Dean.
Here’s wishing a very happy Thanksgiving for the TD and his family.
Nothing gets by you, Lawrence. And a most happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Anyway, FWIW, here is at least one source that supports the proposition that exit polls matched 49 US jurisdictions’ final results… but not Ohio and Florida:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/3/53438/6175&e=9872
Yes, I’m well aware its from someone at the Daily Kos, and therefore, should be acknowledged and seen through that filter. Doesn’t necessarily mean its not true, of course (or that it is true, either).
Let me repeat for those who don’t know where I’m coming from: 2004 is not 2000. Bush won (in ’04); no dispute from me on that. HOWEVER, the exit polls show what they show in OH and FL, and it ain’t pretty… — in the Ukraine, they were wildly off, showing a five to ten point win for the challenger, only to see him lose by five to ten points, in an election where the consensus of monitors says was replete with fraud.
Here, Ohio is still undergoing a perfectly regular, legal recount process (assessing its provisional ballots), and at the end of the day, Bush will still have won, albeit by a smaller number than he now leads by.
I repeat: 2000 was something different. The newspapers that paid a fortune to recount Florida all bent over double backwards to avoid telling us what their efforts showed (that Al Gore won the election in Florida).
If ever an election warranted massive street opposition in this country, it was that one. No matter. We showed patience and maturity as a people… IMHO, that turned out to be a mistake. Even if OUR CONSTITUTION WAS NOT INTERFERED WITH BY OUR MEDDLING AND OVERREACHING PARTISAN SUPREME COURT MAJORITY, Congress (not the Court) gets to decide the election, and would ultimately have elected… Bush.
BUT– a showing, in the streets, by the American people, might well have lessened a great deal of the hubris so many of us have come to associate with the Bush Administration.
Water under the bridge. The Ukrainian Supreme Court has wisely put things on hold while it investigates the fraud allegations; this might even end well, in which case, we’ll all have something else to be thankful for.
I beg to differ about the 2000 election, TD (surprise?). Recounts performed by a media consortium (WaPo, NYT, CNN, etc.) showed Bush still winning Florida. The only way that Gore would have wound up with more votes is if overvotes were assigned to him. But that can’t be done fairly, so it’s not done.
Of the Gore-Buchanan overvotes how many intended to vote for Gore and how many for Buchanan? It’s probably somewhere around 99% for Gore, but how can one know for sure? You can’t. It’s not possible. That’s why you can’t assign overvotes to any candidate. I’m sorry, but if you vote for two candidates for the same office your vote will be invalid. That’s just the way it is.
Gore should have won Florida, but he didn’t because a lot of Floridians made a mistake. The Red Sox should’ve won the ’86 World Series, but didn’t because Buckner made a mistake. There are no do overs in baseball or elections. Buckner had to live with it and so does Gore (and as do the Floridians who accidently voted for Buchanan).
You’re right though, it is water under the bridge, spilt milk, etc…
I’ll check out that Daily Kos article, but it looks like it’s dated Nov. 3. I think it’s been debunked. I’ve read at least 5 articles throwing cold water on Keith Olbermann and the election fraud conspiracies. The bottom line was that there were irregularities, but they didn’t all cut Bush’s way and they didn’t effect the outcome.
Buckner allowed the winning run to score in Game 6, but the Red Sox had already allowed the Mets to score two runs in the bottom of the tenth inning to tie the game (tying run on a wild pitch, no less). Nobody believes that the Red Sox would have won that game after blowing a two run lead, and allowing the Mets to tie. People need to get a life and give Buckner a break.
Some obviously believed they would, Mr. Crabcake, including me. But I concede the point. Buckner had a great career and his two-out error in the bottom of the tenth inning of game 6 wasn’t the sole reason the Red Sox lost that game and later the series. I’ve been a Red Sox fan since childhood and I think now, after they’ve finally won another World Series, we can all lighten up a little about the Buckner error. It happened. I heard somewhere that after that game Buckner was so distraught that he went for a walk on nearby railroad tracks. Witnesses say a train soon approached at high speed and Bill wasn’t moving to get out of the way. Luckily, it passed right through his legs… 🙂
Yes, Lawrence, and Scott Norwood tried to shoot himself in the head, but he was wide right. Hayyyyooooooohhhh.
But seriously, folks, the thought that the Sox would still have won that game is even funnier than your railroad joke.