the talking dog

August 31, 2004, Flip flopping? Soft on terror?

Where's Osama? Where's Osama? (Well, we know he's somewhere in Western Pakistan, awaiting his photo op in October, but that's not important right now.)

No, no... after giving the President credit for behaving like an adult, and announcing that the war on terror TM can not, actually, really be"won", the President promptly disappoints me, with his new marching orders from Karl, and, of course, told veterans in Tennessee, that, au contraire, the war on terror CAN be won!

While this presents a nice opportunity for Senators Kerry and Edwards to call Bush a flip-flopper, it's really a lost opportunity to call for an end to demagoguery and scaremongering, and invite a rational discussion of just how good or bad a job the Bush Administration has done in battling Al Qaeda and making the nation safer, and whether or not the calm, deliberative, mature junior senator from the Bay State can do a better job, or has better ideas on how to the job... or we can go back to fake terror alerts, and surprises (see "Osama").

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Still so insistent that Muslims are people with beliefs just like you and me? Another senseless bombing in Israel.

Posted by Just Wondering at August 31, 2004 11:11 PM

And the Israelis will doubtless respond by killing dozens of times as many Palestinians. Does that mean we should question the bona fides of Jewish belief?

The "terrorists" are particular people who happen to be well-financed by a particular government whose royal family our own President is an honorary member of. Their Moslem status is, frankly, incidental to this.

The reason Moslems are at the center of many of the main blood-baths going on right now (Middle East, Chechnya, Darfur, et al.) is something I recently alluded to: the Islamic world is rapidly moving from the Middle Ages into the space age, and simultaneously continues to have Medieval attitudes toward the world, while having first world modern weaponry. It was a problem when GERMANY combined pagan tree-worship with a First World army, and its a problem when the Islamic world does it too. Its more a political problem (fascism) than a religious one.

And frankly, a racist response will only make things worse.

Posted by the talking dog at September 1, 2004 05:57 PM

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logspot.com/">Katie of Goblin Queen (although Katie did change continents). But I don't know.

Maybe I'll be back tomorrow. Maybe Wednesday. Maybe after Memorial Day. I don't know. Right now, I don't feel I have anything to add to a rather shrill public debate, other than this: See above. Calm the fuck down, people. If we don't, both the terrorists, and those who share an unfortunate symbiotic relationship with them will have won.

Godspeed, and God bless you all.

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So, when are you coming back?

Just to give you an incentive, I'm going to present you with a disagreement. :)

I agree completely that the difference between now and September 10, 2001 is our attitude. However, I disagree with almost everything else you wrote.

We were no less safe after September 11th than we were before, we just knew we were at war. I honestly don't think it was intended to be a one-shot. If we had not reacted as we did, I believe it would have happened again (and it still might).
I think the difference between the pro and anti-war groups is a difference in perception and --perhaps-- a difference in our view of the culture we are facing.
A lot of the pro-war types who aren't your right-wing 'bomb them all' sorts have studied up on the cultures involved. Many of us have lived (or do live) outside of our respective countries and realize how different the perspective of those from other cultures is.
We are dealing with a warrior culture, backed by a warrior religion (don't accuse me of bashing Islam, I also consider Christianity a warrior religion).
The stupidest thing you can do to a warrior who insist on fighting you is ignore him (he'll keep attacking till you pay attention because you are insulting the hell out of him) or try to appease him (he'll consider you a worm).
We'd been doing both. We stopped. I think that's a good thing. You obviously don't. It's a difference in perception. You see them as people 'like you', despite culture, but to be pitied and helped. We see people 'unlike us', because of their culture, to be treated as equals. If they declare war on us (and they did), we'll fight.
And, btw, a lot of us aren't real fond of the Bush administration (in general) on anything other than that one issue.

It would be nice if we could stop throwing poison and try to explain our perceptions to each other but it seems to happen more and more rarely lately.

Posted by Kathy K at June 8, 2003 05:51 PM

Well, the short (or not so short) answer is that for nearly a year after 9-11-01 itself (for which I was famously present one block north, lost a couple of people I knew and my job) I personally called for the head of Saddam Hussein, who I believed then (as now, BTW) was involved in the FIRST bombing of the World Trade Center, and I believe was indirectly involved in the 9-11 events.

However, once a decision was made to sit back and let suicide bombers blow the crap out of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and decided that the Saudis could keep funding terrorists with impugnity and Prince Bandar could dictate that female air traffic controllers not handle his personal jet, AND that while we could blow the crap out of the Taliban without anybody else's permission, but Iraq would be DIFFERENT, and screwed around with, and saved to score points in mid-terms, it simply became obvious to me that EVERYTHING-- EVERYTHING WITHOUT EXCEPTION-- done by the Bush Administration was done for political gain AND NOT FOR SECURITY.

So, that leads to only two conclusions: either the Bush Administration is recklessly evil, and couldn't care less if another terror strike hit a major American city (or worse, LOOKED FORWARD to it, as justifying even more repressive measures)... OR, the Bush Administration is content to merely play up the PERCEIVED danger, knowing that there really ISN'T any ongoing danger (which explains why easy shit like suicide bombers at Penn Station and Port Authority Bus terminal have just not happened here).

I prefer the second explanation-- the Bush Administration KNOWS there is no real threat, and is content to overstate suchh threat as there is for political purposes (note-- we went to orange alert THE DAY I went on hiatus-- and then off it a week later!!!). Evidence? Precisely: no terrorist attacks on American soil since 9-11 (forget flight 587 and anthrax! Bush & Co. wanted to score points that THERE WERE NO terrorist links to those events; he gets judged accordingly)

Look: we probably disrupted Al Qaeda & Co. with the strikes on Afghanistan. As to Saddam, all we need to know is HOW LONG AFTER 9-11 WE WAITED. If Saddam WAS an immediate, credible threat, waiting so long was reckless. If he was NOT such a threat, rushing to invade was unnecessary. Looks like the second, eh? Do the extensive WMD findings in Iraq make you MORE confident of the ravings of the Bush Administration?


We have just destabilized Iraq, big time. We have a mess to clean up, and if we don;t do it right, we have doubtless inspired MORE-- not less-- of the irrational nuts from the warrior culture you just described.

Posted by the talking dog at June 8, 2003 11:31 PM

'We have just destabilized Iraq'.
Correct.

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