the talking dog

I was going to use this particular post heading to refer to the happy occasion of an ethics panel in Alabama removing Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore from office over his refusals to remove the granite Ten Commandments monument he planted in that court's building. The Unseen Editor feels that an appropriate punishment for Moore would be hanging, but I feel that only making him reimburse the governments of Alabama and the United States for the entire costs associated with the litigation that he caused, and then hanging him, would be appropriate. Good riddance. God may forgive you, but there's no reason for any of us here to do so, as you wasted money on your political grandstanding that could have been better spent elsewhere by your fiscally strapped state (you bastard) on stupid things. Like schools and hospitals.

But then, when considering "Maxwell's Silver Hammer", I see this story of "Operation Iron Hammer", which I'll be damned if I tell you doesn't appear to me to be a "major combat operation" launched by American forces in Iraq, following the egregious recent attack on an Italian base in Iraq that left over 30 dead.

All I can say is, let's see... a group of terrorists attack somewhere, killing lots of people, drawing heavy handed responses from a vastly superior military, possibly provoking more terror attacks... lather, rinse, repeat. No... those of you who favored this Iraq adventure going in had no idea that the United States was likely buyng its own version of the West Bank and Gaza. No idea at all. This was going to be a cakewalk, we would be welcomed as liberators, yada yada yada.

Well, congratulations. I hope you and Roy Moore are all happy about the results of your arrogance.

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Comments

From 11/3/03: Each American troop killed is not an indication that we are winning; it is an indication that we have not yet secured the place-- not by a long shot.
And yet, the President insists that the current troop level is adequate, because "the generals aren't asking for more troops".

From 10/17/03: I am only speculating, of course, that had the decision been made in military terms instead of politically palatable terms, far more troops (and far fewer contractors) would have been deployed, and Iraqi security and infrastructure would be substantially in place by now.

From 9/27/03: Unfortunately, much as I welcome more American troops to stabilize things in Iraq, I see this as little more than window dressing- barely replacing Rummy's most recent draw-downs.

Well, which is it? More troops? Pull out? You can't decide, and neither can Wes Clark.

Do you think the Republicans might win again with this kind of irresoluteness? Because I do.

Posted by William Kristol at November 13, 2003 06:07 PM

Billy--

I loved you in "When Harry Met Sully".

Excuse me, but unlike President Mission Accomplished, I have never EVER said anything OTHER than we need more troops in Iraq-- albeit an act of liberal apostasy on my part. Don't play chickenshit games like this with ME-- because on THAT point, I have been unwavering.

You want to catch me waffling or wavering, there's lots of other stuff on other issues-- but not this one. I opposed this war-- I protested it in fact. But now, we're stuck with this shit. We have to do it right.

My criticism that you cited was that I felt that Rummy was REDUCING Iraq troop strength-- and CALLING it an increase-- hardly how you improperly characterize it.

Posted by the talking dog at November 13, 2003 06:23 PM

The implication of your post was that the U.S. should withdraw.

Posted by William Kristol at November 13, 2003 06:44 PM

WK--

Its a rare day I get a thinker of your stature to comment on my humble blog, but you are disappointing me. I might consider asking you for a blog interview at some point, but this is not your finest journalism.

I note that in the very same 9-27-03 post you offer as evidence of my waffling and favoring a withdrawal from Iraq, a paragraph or two after you accuse me of waffling and favoring WITHDRAWAL, I state as follows:

"Things in Iraq could be better. A lot better. We need to give the military what it needs to do its job-- and that does NOT mean billions more to Halliburton, Bechtel and Dynegy (around... $87 billion, actually)-- but DOES mean more troops and proper equipment and supplies."

How does my saying we need MORE TROOPS mean, imply, or even remotely convey that I believe the US should withdraw? Huh? YOU TELL ME that. Never mind-- I'll tell you. It doesn't. Because you're just wrong on this.

Posted by the talking dog at November 13, 2003 07:23 PM

I was talking about your post today. I cited earlier posts which I felt were contradictory. You're probably a Clark supporter with this much constancy.

Posted by William Kristol at November 13, 2003 07:41 PM

Look, Mr. K--

I admit to being a waffler on MANY issues-- but on Iraq, I have been solid, solid, solid: everything Bush has done on that front is wrong (as well as frequently illegal), and every position I have held on it is right. IN case you weren't aware, I myself am a candidate, though not well funded (Bruce Moomaw of California is my running mate).

As to my ALWAYS RIGHT position on Iraq (which no other Democratic candidate shares in full measure, to their discredit): (1) We shouldn't have HAD the damned war in the first place-- the war was wrong and everybody with a brain knew it going in; the Democrats, frankly, DESERVE to lose because OF THE WAR-- all but 22 senators caved and voted to pander, rather than their consciences, including my OWN two prick Dem senators from NY. (2) Having gone in to Iraq anyway, we have now changed the game board, and now must occupy the place correctly-- its called a LEGAL obligation we brought upon ourselves. FOr THAT, we are grossly underployed-- less than half the troops Shinseki and Franks said we needed. (3) Going forward, we need more money, and more troops, to get up to the occupation levels projected by the generals to secure the place. (4) THEN we need to get elections as fast as fucking possible, get a temporary multilateral security force with a heavy Iraqi contingent, and then get the fuck out. It might take 2 or 3 years. That's my plan, and its right-- and on this issue, I haven't waffled.

I can criticize the war-- and hurl extra righteous vitriol at war supporters-- SUCH AS APPARENTLY YOU-- with my good conscience and integrity completely intact.

Give my best to Vice President Quayle, who is ALSO always welcome if he wants to give me a blog interview.

Posted by the talking dog at November 13, 2003 08:42 PM

Will the real William Kristol please stand up?

Kristol you can't be accused of being a "waffler" after all saying this:

I think the American people are going to have great tolerance for the war taking longer, and they are going to have great tolerance for more casualties.
William Kristol
AEI Breakfast
March 27, 2003

and then your comment today makes you pretty damn consistent...it's okay to kill other peoples kids and Americans really won't care. I think that position is becoming untenable as this is no longer looking like a rose-petal strewn walk-through.

But hey, I'm not a rich, neocon know-it-all...so WTF do I know?

Posted by Jo Fish at November 13, 2003 09:42 PM

Folks, you simply aren't giving little Billy his due. With the flaming success (my apologies to Andrew Sullivan) of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as a tactical model - the Neocons of PNAC are simply expanding their version of reality worldwide. The fact that the it is not, and never has been, a working model is unworthy of consideration to those who will not actually be doing any of the sacrificing. Political connections aside, there is money to be made, land to be taken, and natural resources to be siezed.

Gen. Shinseki was 100% correct in his original pre-combat troop assessment. Again, reality was brushed aside, for political and monetary gain, by those who view the world as an object of desire. The questions begs to be answered, who was correct? Gen. Shinseki or Paul Wolfowitz?

God forbid we should trust our professional military leaders to make accurate military predictions. Instead the assesments of America’s career military officers were subjugated to individuals who are demonstrably working in their personal best interests - or worse, the best interests of other nations .

And you don’t even want to get me started on the traitorous activities of Richard Perle.

I opposed this war from day one - for the obvious reasons that the foundation it was built upon was fabricated to fit a predestined objective. PNAC began promoting - or rather pandering - to it’s base, and in order to do that the American public had to be dragged along. Hence one lie after another was put forth as fact, even going so far as to drag out that relic and shining example of all that is wrong with humanity and the Republican party, Newt Gingrich, to strong-arm Intelligence agencies to produce “forward-leaning” intelligence assessments.

But this is old news and even a drug-addicted right-wing radio talk-show host with half his brain tied behind his back (the other half was stoned out of his mind) could see the truth if the cognitive dissonance that exists so prominently among the far-right Neocons could ever work it’s way through the fog of desire for Pax Americana.

Having said this, more troops are needed in Iraq. Not necessarily American troops though. The unilateralism of the dangerously delusional PNAC must be replaced with a multilateral force in order to remove the stigma of “American Occupation”. We “liberated” Iraq - fine. Now, let’s get the fuck out of here and turn the country over to a group with Iraqi interests at heart. Little Billy, don’t go and twist my meaning around to fit some pre-conceived notion you may have - I’m not calling for the complete removal of American troops, just the removal of American “occupation”. American troops as part of a multi-lateral force may work just dandy.

Then again, it may not. We are damned if we do and damned if we do not, but it has to be obvious even to the 1600 Fedayeen crew that our current course has placed America in an untenable position, not to mention my Marines at high risk. It is equally obvious that President Hump-a-Lump, who prides himself on not reading and can’t even find the leaker in his own staff, has no clear vision in foreign policy. I’m beginning to think he needs glasses simply to find his ass with both hands.

President Clueless has led America over a cliff and we are now in the midst of a free-fall realizing we should never have jumped without a parachute. America will rectify this problem in 2004.

But our next President is going to have one hell of a mess on his hands.

Capt. (Name withheld for the obvious reasons) USMC

Posted by Little Neutrino at November 14, 2003 11:55 AM

Mr. Kristol, you can criticize us doves for alleged inconsistency all you want, but the fact is you know the troops aren't going to get summarily yanked right out of Iraq anytime soon. (Dennis Kucinich is the only Democratic candidate who has explicitly called for that, as a matter of fact.) You're only attempting to distract people from the fact that it was YOUR New-American-Century bug in the ear of George W. Bush that's partially responsible for getting us into this mess in the first place. You and Kagan gave the Bush administration an invasion jones even before 9/11 happened, and you've been given precisely what you wished for. Now that it's turned out to be not what you expected, you're trying to project your dissatisfaction onto Wes Clark? Spare me, Mr. Kristol...spare us all.

Make all the weak insinuations about Clark that you want, but come November '04, there are going to be quite a few people demanding a president who wasn't last seen mistaking his ass for a hole in the ground. And the fact that you're already starting in on one of the leading Democratic candidates, apropos of not much that I can see, leads me to believe you're afraid we might get one.

Posted by Doug G. at November 14, 2003 02:35 PM

I am endlessly atonished at the level of vitriol among many Democrats for George Bush.

Agree with him or not, at least he has a foreign policy. He removed a tyrant from power and is now trying to promote democracy in a part of the world that has never experienced it.

Is it working out exactly as we had hoped? Of course not. But we're trying, and to characterize the overthrow of a mini-Hitler as some sort of act of aggression or pointless exercise is amazingly cynical.

And how, exactly, would the Democrats fight terror? Pass a prescription drug benefit and wait for something to blow up?

Or do you expect the UN to protect us?

Posted by William Kristol at November 14, 2003 04:35 PM

WK--

How can I say this: Bush certainly HAS a definitive foreign policy vision. It just happens to be shortsighted, bullheaded and excruciatingly dangerous. Iraq has gone badly-- period. The "hard part" was easy; the easy part is proving to be a bitch and a half. Bottom line: was the expenditure of blood and treasure a worthwhile investment for the United States of America? Answer: FUCK. NO.
I'm not going to argue about whether removing Saddam was a good thing. Of course it was.

But then, I think more human beings would benefit if we removed the regimes in China, North Korea, Congo, Burma, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe and probably another 50-100 countries I could name.

We're not in the business of removing regimes just because they're bad. (BTW, we didn't even remove Milosevic-- we intervened to stop a genocide, and HIS OWN people removed him.)

Do I wish that the Dems would be consistent (and BTW, Gephardt and Lieberman have been VERY consistent on their positions toward Iraq-- the latter maybe toughter than Bush) on Iraq? Of course. But as the opposition, we get to kick around what we MIGHT do; Bush has to defend his actual record. Which sucks.

9-11 was a colossal security failure. Maybe it was Bush's fault, maybe there was nothing that could be done. We may never know, given how eager the Administration is to stonewall the investigation. But it happened on his watch-- and I've yet to see him take responsibility for that, rather than play it for political advantage. But Iraq clearly had NOTHING to do with 9-11, and despite the rhetoric, Osama is still out there (of course, so is SADDAM!!!)

Yes, I despise Bush-- I've made no secret of it. But on Iraq, I despise him for definite, well-articulated reasons. In short-- he has put his personal political advantage ahead of the security of the United States and the lives of our troops.

For that he has my scorn, and should have the scorn of all Americans.

Posted by the talking dog at November 14, 2003 05:03 PM

President National Embarrssment has a foreign policy? And exactly what is it and when is he going to let the rest of America know? Bomb whoever the PNAC tells you to? Oh yeah, there's real insight and depth of vision there.

I notice that you conviently went to "removed a tyrant from power", thereby skipping the entire WMD thing.

Cute. I like that in a delusional Neocon.

And the whole "promote democracy in a part of the world that has never experienced it" - that's cute too. But like most delusions, untrue. We created the state of Israel, the shining example of democracy in the Middle East, in 1948. Uh...you have noticed that it hasn't caught on haven't you?

Do I expect the UN to protect us? Why do you ask - did Iraq attack us?

How will the Democrats fight terrorism? Ask our next President, Wesley Clark. Unlike you and President Clueless, Gen. Clark is one of us - and by that I don't mean one of you. But this much is certain - he cannot do anything worse than the current 1600 Crew.

As for the prescription drug benefits? Who could have ever guessed that the Republican prescription drug plan would be introduced by Rush Limbaugh and involve buying prescription drugs at Denny's restaurants?

Posted by Little Neutrino at November 14, 2003 05:10 PM

I forgot to tell you something Billy and it’s important so pay attention, there’s going to be a test.

I’m NOT a Democrat.

Like most of my Marines, I am a registered Republican and have been for quite some time - about 3 decades. This is neither my first war or first combat. I even voted for George W. Bush - and for that I need forgiveness.

And there are hundreds of thousands of us Billy. Active duty. Retired. Disabled. Former veterans. And then of course, there are all those families of all those soldiers you have murdered in your delusional quest for Pax Americana. And we are Republicans.

The point is this - none of us are going to vote for President Clueless in ‘04. Oh, we’ll keep our ‘Happy Face’ on all through your senseless war - it’s what we do, it’s who we are. We’ll smile for the cameras and appear as backdrops for your photo-ops. We’ll keep that ‘Happy Face’ on all the way to November 2004 - and right up to that ballot box.

Then it will be replaced with our ‘laughing-out-loud-while-wildly-cheering’ face as we put the adults back in charge of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

And we consign the would-be world dictators from the PNAC back to the dark recesses where they belong.

Capt. (Name withheld for security reasons) U.S.M.C.

Posted by Little Neutrino at November 14, 2003 06:05 PM

"And how, exactly, would the Democrats fight terror? Pass a prescription drug benefit and wait for something to blow up?"

Gee. I don't know. Maybe we should ask Condi. Oh I forgot, she wasn't paying attention when Sandy Berger turned things over to her, including bin laden and al qaeda intelligence.

Maybe a better question is: why did Bush ignore European leaders when they were trying to tell him that Terrorism not Nuclear was the #1 threat in the world today?

Posted by bcinaz at November 14, 2003 08:55 PM

Hilarious. Kristol accuses Democrats of being weak on fighting terror, while (as bicnaz points out) Bush and his team were busy fighting terror, pre-9/11, by gutting the antiterrorism budget and transferring it all to a missile-defense program.

Yeah, that system will really do a number on terrorists.

And meantime, the multinational coalition that anyone with a brain can see is necessary for any kind of serious fight against terrorism has been handily tossed in the Dumpster by the America-uber-alles PNAC crowd now running the White House.

What a piece of work.

Posted by David Neiwert at November 16, 2003 06:36 PM

Billy, Billy, Billy, you silly little Fraggle...
When are you going to get it into your thick little cranium that all the degrees and your clever little glossy rag don't amount to Jack Squat? You are what my sainted mother calls an "educated idiot." Whole lotta book learnin' zero common sense. Have you even served any military time? No? Then why are you so cavalier with the lives of America's sons and daughters then? Allow me to answer; it's because you and your neo-con, chickenhawk posse haven't got the grapes to walk the walk. You just talk the talk. Call me when you develop a spine, you gutless jellyfish.

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